Semantics and misinformation: the source of most confusion on any Catholic teaching.
In this case, it basically comes down to how one defines the word “worship.”
But let’s be clear. When someone charges the Catholic Church with “worshiping Mary,” they are usually implying that Catholics put Mary on par with God. This couldn’t be further from the truth. And to any Catholic that truly understands their faith, this sounds more heretical to them than to anyone.
Unfortunately, this charge is most often used by people who dislike the Catholic Church and are usually trying to add more confusion to the issue and damage the image of the Church.
If they were truly seeking understanding on the matter they would easily find a very reasonable truth, perhaps very different than the misinformation they’ve been told in the past.
First, let’s try to define the word “worship.”
In our culture and language, worship is often understood to be “reverence offered to a divine being.”
In this sense, worship is only for God. Catholics say AMEN! Offering this kind of reverence to Mary or anyone else as being divine would be heresy to a Catholic.
However, another common definition of worship is “extravagant respect or admiration for or devotion to an object of esteem.” In this sense, not only is worshiping someone or something other than God not a bad thing, it would be an entirely Christian thing to do.
Surely it is a good thing to give respect where respect is due. It is good to honor our parents and heroes. It is good to admire those that inspire us to be better people. It is good to remember those great examples that have gone before us. That is a part of building up the Body of Christ.
And certainly many people cherish and honor that old pocket watch passed down from their grandfather, the string of pearls from their great-great aunt, or the book of hymns their mother sung from every morning when they were growing up.
Are they worshiping these things though?
Are we worshiping our heroes when we honor and respect them as they return home from war? Or when we place flowers and kneel at the grave of a loved one? Or when we light a candle in honor of something important to us? Or when we look to the sky and ask our deceased grandmother to help us out in a hard time? Or when we give someone an award or title to recognize their accomplishment?
Again, that depends on how you define the word “worship.”
The traditional Catholic understanding of worship would be more like: homage paid to God, to Jesus Christ, to His saints, to the beings or even to the objects which have a special relation to God (New Advent).
So in this sense, it’s not a bad thing when worship includes all of these other people and things. It’s a good thing. It’s a natural and human thing.
Some say, “but that’s idolatry!”
Not at all. It’s no more idolatry than cherishing your grandfather’s old pocket watch, admiring an uncle, or keeping a picture in your wallet of someone you care about.
There’s an important distinction that must be made, though. If we honor a watch simply because it is a watch, it’s ours, and it does things for us – that’s idolatry. When our end goal in life is to possess a huge house, nice car, and fashionable clothes – that’s idolatry.
But when we are thankful for these things because we see God’s hand in them, because they remind us of the love of someone special, because they build us up – that is worship. And it’s actually, indirectly, worship of God.
When we love our neighbor, we love God. When we respect and admire all things that are good, we respect and admire God. It is all a form of worship, but only because of their relation to God. That’s the key.
To further clarify this, Catholics differentiate between a few “levels” of worship.
There is supreme, sovereign worship and adoration of God alone. This is known as latria. If this is given to any creature or thing aside from God, it is idolatry. All other forms of worship serve this in some way.
Then there is worship that honors and venerates martyrs, angels, saints, and things associated with them. This is known as dulia. This is simply the honor and respect that we owe to those that have served God in great ways. Its purpose is to honor God by honoring what He’s done through His creation.
Further, because Mary is the first among the saints, playing a unique role in the history of salvation, the veneration and honoring of Mary is known as hyperdulia. This is to recognize her as above other saints, while she is still infinitely small next to God. But because God chose to use her in such a special way and she – full of Grace – responded, Catholics recognize that.
The key is to see it all for what it is and to not get caught up in the semantics and prejudices. All of these forms of worship bring honor to God when done appropriately. They are connected, just as creation is connected to its Creator. The real sin is in separating those things. And that happens at both extremes.
On one extreme you have those who worship creation alone without recognizing God’s part in it. And on the other extreme you have those that wish to worship God, but think they can separate that worship from the very Creation from within which they do so.
Shouldn’t we want to worship the creator in every way that we can? A big part of that is properly respecting and honoring His creation – especially where His grace has worked the most and served Him greatest.
Any admiration, honor, or devotion to any holy thing or person can point us to God ever more strongly. It is in the beauty of God’s creation that He reveals Himself to us so that we can worship him that much more intimately. His creation has been given the power to illuminate His Love and does so most intensely in his greatest creation, made in His own likeness – human beings. Mary does this above all other human beings.
And certainly if the angel Gabriel greets Mary, “Hail, full of grace,” (Luke 1:28) then we should recognize her with the same reverence and respect – call it worship or not.
Loading ...
{ 46 comments… read them below or add one }
Amen! Well written – thank you
Here in Italy, to outsiders, it would seem we go overboard with processions in honour of Our Lady, as can be seen in my latest blog posts. But Italians are expressive and sociable which makes life much more affable. To outsiders it may seem idolatry but all it is, is a means of preserving what is important and significant before the mass media, advertising, cheap thrills that books, films, and the rest of night life snuffs away replacing the concept of womanhood with a symbol of pornography.
As a Protestant, I hear this kind of thing come up every now and then as one of the differences in belief between Protestants and Catholics. In my experience, among Protestants, I don’t think the issue comes up in terms of “worshipping” Mary or “worshipping” the Saints. Instead, the (related) issue I think a lot of Protestants–perhaps mistakenly–face is the role of Mary and the Saints in how we approach God.
I don’t claim to be all that well informed in Catholic beliefs, so I’d really appreciate some clarification on the following perception. My (likely flawed) understanding of the role of Mary and the Saints is that they intercede to God on our behalf. We offer our prayer requests to Mary in order that she may pass them on to God, perhaps lending some credibility to the request along the way.
As a Protestant, I believe that only Jesus can intercede with God on my behalf, and I think that’s where I take issue with this treatment of Sainthood.
So am I misinterpreting the Catholic beliefs surrounding Sainthood and prayer? I’d really appreciate clarification; my interest is for the sake of understanding and dialogue, not theological criticism.
Tim – thank you for the thoughtful comments!
I’m not sure if you’re misinterpreting Catholics beliefs here yet, but let me ask you a question: Do you ever ask others to pray for you? If so, why?
Tim, indeed your inquiry resonates with me as I am a convert.
I would like to refer you to http://www.scripturecatholic.com/saints.html as there are many references to Sacred Scripture.
BTW – your Fifty Word Stories are great.
The peace of our Lord to you!
Intercession from others in the Body of Christ is NOT a sin, in fact it is commanded in scripture. Jesus calls us all to intercede on behalf of our fellow man. Intercessory prayer is all through the New Testament. In the book of Revelations, you read that the Saints continually intercede for us in heaven. Jesus is the only MEDIATOR between God and man, but NOT the only intercessor. If he wanted to be the only intercessor He would not have asked us to pray the Lord’s Prayer asking the Father to forgive our trespassors. He is the only one who ATONED for our sins and MEDIATES on our behalf, but intercession is for ALL of us, including the church triumphant in heaven!
Tim, Jesus IS God. “He who has seen Me has seen the Father.” When Mary presents our prayers to her Son, she is presenting them to God, through the Second Person of the Trinity — who also happens to be her son. Jesus never refused His mother anything. Furthermore, her will was always His will (”Do whatever He tells you.” — the wedding at Cana). She will not ask him for anything that does not conform to His will.
The saints (both with a capital “S” – the ones we recognize – and with a small “s” – the souls who died in God’s grace and who, having paid all of the temporal punishment due to forgiven sins, enjoy the Beatific Vision in Heaven) are also favored by God and they can present our petitions. We know this for sure for the capital “S” saints because they led lives of exceptional virtue on earth, and because proven, verified miracles have occurred through their intercession. But the small “s” saints are just as holy, and just as favored, and they can also intercede for us.
The souls that are still undergoing purification (in the state that we call Purgatory) can also pray for us (and they do) – they are themselves holy, otherwise they would not be on their way to Heaven.
Why aren’t our own prayers directly to God “good enough”? Any self-love, self-centeredness, weakness, etc., of ours gets in the way and keeps them from being totally worthy and pleasing to God. But prayers through Mary and the saints are made pure when presented to God.
Did this help?
I am a Roman Catholic and I disagree that we cannot pray directly to God because our prayers are not pure enough. Jesus gave us the Our Father which is a prayer directly to the Father, and this instruction in prayer was given to ALL believers. I disagree with the Protestants when they say that Jesus is the only intercessor (I think what they mean is mediator and are confusing the difference between the meaning of the two words). We can ask Mary and the saints and our friends and family to intercede and pray for us, but we can ALWAYS feel free to pray directly to the Father at any time. This is where I agree with the Protestants, that we are to have a personal relationship with the Father and be able to talk to Him one on one anytime. I feel kind of sad that some Catholics do not realize that even though we are sinful human beings that we can still pray to the Father in the way Jesus asked us to do! Jesus said to go into your closet and to PRAY TO YOUR FATHER who sees you in secret! I believe I am following proper Roman Catholic teaching when I remind fellow Catholics of this. We can always pray directly to our Father in our prayer closets at any time. The Protestants are right to get upset when we tell them they cannot pray to the Father in this way and in this area I will defend them because it is actually Catholic teaching that they can!
Here is a good reputable source explaining catholic prayer methods.
http://home.earthlink.net/~mysticalrose/pray2whom.html
Prayer directly to the Father IS one of them. In fact, that is the MOST IMPORTANT prayer of all, and never ever should we discourage anyone from praying to the Father because they should fear that their prayers are not pure enough. First of all, God already knows our hearts. We can’t hide anything from the Father. Every one of us is a sinner. Jesus told us to pray to the Father because this is very important. Sure, Mary, saints, angels, friends, and family intercede, but you know what. I pray for my loved ones even if they don’t ask me to pray for them.
I’m sure the saints are interceding for our Protestant brethren even though they aren’t asking the saints to pray for them. I participate in prayers as well at church “for our seperated brethren”. They didn’t ask us to pray for them at Mass and intercede in this way, but we do it anyway!
There is nothing wrong with them praying directly to the Father. We do it as Catholics, it is a directive in scripture given to us from Jesus Himself, AND intercession of the saints is in scripture as well and that has to do with our COMMUNAL prayers as being One in the Body of Christ (which includes the Church Triumphant in Heaven) There are not two seperate Bodies of Christ….one in Heaven and one on Earth…Believers are to be One in Christ with Christ in the Father. We can pray together and intercede.
Dawnmaureen – thanks for the thoughts and great info!
But I don’t think anyone was saying it’s not OK to pray directly to God. You are 100% correct that this is essential to any Christian prayer life and OF COURSE it is taught by the Church. There is no question. But so is intercessory prayer…which is the point. It’s BOTH/AND…not EITHER/OR.
To this point, we have scripture that tells us exactly what we are hitting on here:
Here we have instruction to confess our sins to one another and to pray for one another…i.e. interceding for each other. We also see that prayer of a “righteous” person is very powerful. So I intend on asking everyone, especially the most righteous, to pray for me. Certainly the saints, and most of all Mary, would be the most righteous and therefore have very powerful prayers.
And I think that’s the issue that came up. It’s not that our own prayers directly to God are not “good enough” – they are essential and foundational. But it is good to recognize that the prayers from more righteous people are more powerful.
Tim – I think another thing people get hung up on is that they think that by including saints and others in our prayer life it is somehow leaving God out, praying to him less, or somehow inferring that it is necessary to go through others to talk to God. If that were the case then we would all be correct to condemn it. But that’s not the case when it’s done appropriately.
It’s not that we’re leaving God out. It’s that we’re including our brothers and sisters in Christ. It’s never just “me and God.” It’s always “everyone else, me, and God.” That’s the beauty of the Communion of Saints in the Church. We all make up the same Body. What we do to the least of our brethren we do to Jesus.
It’s the same reason I’m fairly sure you pray for others and ask them to pray for you. You aren’t leaving out God, you are including each other. And in doing so we actually commune with God that much MORE intimately.
It’s not a matter of “I don’t NEED to have others intercede for me.” It’s a matter of “it is a loving and holy thing that they do intercede for me…as it brings us all together as His Body closer to Him!”
God bless ya!
Just in case my question in the last paragraph of my post has been misunderstood — it was late, I was running out of space in the combox, what can I say? I could have expressed the thought better.
Certainly we can and should pray directly to God. That’s why Jesus taught us the Our Father, after all. When we are at Mass, when we pray the Liturgy of the Hours, when we say our morning and night prayers, everything is directed to God.
However, the value in praying to Mary and the Saints for their intercession, or in offering our praise to God and our gifts to Him, is exactly that I was saying (or trying to). Actually, it’s a paraphrase of St. Louis-Marie de Montfort’s explanation in “True Devotion to Mary.” His explanation is longer, and well worth looking up and reading.
Yes, Matthew, exactly. BOTH are in scripture. It is both, not either/or. I think the Protestants are right in defending prayer directly to the Father, and we are right in defending prayer directly to the father but also not neglecting the scriptural mandate to intercessory prayer and the mandate to act as one Body in Christ, which includes communion with the saints and the angels and the elders who lift our prayers to heaven like incense. A personal relationship with our Father, does not negate a communal relationship with our fellow christians, both here on earth and the ones in heaven. ONE BODY IN CHRIST, not seperate, but united in the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.
I do not believe our prayers have to be ‘perfect’ to reach God however, because we are sinful human beings, and we have to start somewhere, and we first have to lift up our hearts to God in prayer if they are to be made pure. We don’t become pure first and then pray. We are sinful first, and become holy through praying without ceasing. If we don’t have the words, we can ask the Holy Spirit to intercede and pray for us. (That is in scripture to, that we can ask this of the Holy Spirit) We should always feel safe in our Fathers arms and should not hesitate to approach him no matter how bad off we are. The saints pray for all men without being asked to pray for us. I know they are with us interceding on our behalf. If you listen closely to the Our Father, it is an intercessory prayer, right?
Here is a page someone made where they gathered scriptures on intercessory prayer.
http://www.dianedew.com/interces.html
It’s important to understand the differences in meanings between mediator and intercessor. If the meanings are confused, you cannot understand the scriptural mandates. It is because Jesus mediates that we are able to intercede for others through prayer as One Body in Christ. Certainly the Virgin Mary is allowed to pray for us. I can’t imagine God slapping her hand for doing so and saying ‘bad woman, that’s a big no no!’. I bet her prayers avail much since she is one righteous woman, the most blessed of all women! I certainly don’t disregard what she obviously does as a common thing. Shoot babes even leap in the womb when they hear her voice. Should someone repremand that poor baby for leaping in Elizabeth’s womb?
Mary is an important part of our Catholilc faith. We worship God. We love and honour Mary who is the Mother of God. She is Queen so gracious, Mother so gentle, woman so beautiful. Reactions to Mary can be for different reasons – reactions to her perfect purity, reactions to her perfect womanhood to say but a few. Our Lady is an extraordinary woman who can teach us so much, making pathways to her Son, if we would but spend a little time with her when we can!
I agree with Clò’s statement above. We honour Mary because of who she is and love her for her own sake which does not mean loving God or Christ less, but more, because of her.
Matt, I just started reading your blog – it’s great! Thank you for this well-written post. The subject has come up several times recently among family members and in faith sharing situations. This post and the associated links within the comments will explain Marian devotion so much better than I. Thanks again!
Wow, that’s a lot of responses to sort through! Thanks for all the thoughts, opinions, and theology everyone. I think I understand the Catholic approach a little better now.
I see what you’re all saying about asking others (including the Saints) to pray for us in conjunction with our own prayers. I suppose I shrink back a little from the idea that we can “pray” to other people who have died. I am of the opinion that the dead are dead until Jesus returns, and at that point they will be raised and brought into heaven with those who are still living. And if they are dead, how can we speak to them to ask them to pray on our behalf? So in a way it comes down to whether you believe that the dead go immediately to heaven–or, if you’re Catholic, to Purgatory and then, eventually, to heaven–or whether you believe that the dead are simply dead until Jesus’ return.
I also hesitate when it comes to praying to/through the Saints because it *seems* (and perhaps *only* seems) to create a hierarchy of closeness to God. There can be an implication there that the prayers of Mary or of Paul or of John Paul II are more fit for God’s ears than your prayers or my prayers, because they have done more good deeds and earned more of God’s attention. And I think that goes against the great miracle of the torn veil and the Holy Spirit. Like I said, that may only be an appearance or an implication, but I think it’s an area that demands clarity.
Tim, each of us has a body and a soul. The body dies (and will be resurrected). The soul never dies and it never sleeps. A person’s soul is just as much that person as the body is. That is why we can ask the saints/Saints for help. it’s also why we can ask the Holy Souls in Purgatory to pray for us.
I agree that the soul lives on after the body has died. But doesn’t the Bible suggest that we will be given *new* bodies at the resurrection? So in the meantime, before the resurrection, aren’t we simply dead, while we wait for our new, heavenly bodies?
And of course, as a Protestant I don’t believe in the existence of “purgatory.” I believe that the soul is either on earth or in heaven (or maybe hell), not somewhere in between. And I don’t know of any Biblical evidence of talking to deceased souls–at least, not to deceased souls who are in heaven. The only thing I can think of is when Saul spoke to the witch to try to contact… Elijah I think? I may be getting that confused a little. But I don’t think God was too happy about it, one way or another.
I mean, this is something I haven’t put a *ton* of thought into, so I’d love to see some scriptural basis for contact with the deceased, through prayer or otherwise.
It’s our body, resurrected and glorified. The body is dead, the soul is not. Our souls *are* us — just as our bodies are.
See Philippians 3:21 and 1 Corinthians 15:42-44. There’s more, I think, but I’m at work and don’t have much time. These are the two main citations.
Purgatory is a state of being purified, not a physical “place.” Nobody really understands how it works — it’s one of those mysteries. But … we know that it exists, both from Scripture and from reason. We know that God is merciful. He would not condemn someone to Hell for minor sins. But God is perfect, and He is just — we must be purified of all human imperfection in order to be in His presence. Remember the unjust servant? Cast into prison until he had paid in full? (Mt 5:26) Other scripture: 1 Cor 3:15 and 1 Peter 1:7 (purifying fire), 2 Maccabees 12:46 (making atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin), Rev 21:27 (nothing unclean shall enter heaven), 1 Peter 3:18-20, 4:6 (important — Jesus preached to the spirits in prison), 2 Tim 1:16-18 (Paul prays for dead friend Onesiphorus)
I’m not talking about “communicating with the dead” (certainly not in the “New Age” sense, and certainly not necromancy, which is what got Saul in trouble — as if he wasn’t in enough trouble with God about everything else!) other than as being able to ask them to pray for us. I have a lot of scripture to cite on this, but it’s going to have to wait until I have a few more minutes free.
Responding to your objection that the Saints and others are dead, and intercessory prayer to them is necromancy:
Mk 12:26-27 (He is God of the living, not of the dead), Mk 9:4 (Jesus seen during Transfiguration conversing with Elijah and Moses), Lk 23:43 (”This day you will be with me in Paradise), Rev 6:9-11 (martyrs under the altar want earthly vindication), Heb 12:1 (we are surrounded by a cloud of witnesses), Lk 16:19-30 (the departed rich man asks for intercession for his brothers), Rev 20:4 (saw the souls of those who had been beheaded), and one that you may possibly object to citing, but it is part of the Bible even though Protestants removed it from theirs: Wis 3:1-6 (the souls of the just are in the hand of God)
If I may, I’d like to quote what the Catechism of the Catholic Church says about our nature and our soul.
“The soul is the spiritual principle of human beings. The soul is the subject of human consciousness and freedom; soul and body together form one unique human nature. Each human soul is individual and immortal, immediately created by God. The soul does not die with the body, from which it is separated by death, and with which it will be reunited in the final resurrection.”
This explains, to me at least, why (though not how) we can address prayers to the souls of the departed. How often do we say, of someone who has died, “He is in a better place now.” Doesn’t this recognize that the person is living still, at least the soul? Having lost both of my parents recently, I take great comfort in that, and I can ask them to intercede with God for me, with total confidence that they will hear me and pray for me as they did when they were alive here on Earth.
I don’t want to discount the value of the other teachings and traditions of the Catholic Church about these matters, but I haven’t brought them up because that would lead to a whole ‘nother conversation. Maybe another time.
I hope the scripture citations help you understand how we understand these things, I appreciate your interest, and thank you for giving me this opportunity to witness. It’s good practice for me when I have to deal with the people who would disagree with BOTH of us about EVERYTHING!
Thanks for the comments on “communicating” with the dead. I think the example of the thief on the cross (”Today you will be with me in Paradise”) is the best evidence that we go to heaven immediately when we die. Some of those others are parables and/or metaphors, but it’s a hard subject to have real clarity on.
As for purgatory, though–and I apologize if this is getting too far off topic–why do you believe that God would not condemn someone to Hell for “minor” sins? What is a minor sin? Don’t Matthew 5:28 and Romans 3:23 suggest that we are all imperfect, and that *any* sin makes us unworthy of Heaven? That’s the miracle of the Cross: we all deserve Hell, but because of God’s grace we all have the opportunity to receive Heaven if we believe and accept.
So at what point can we say that someone has or has not sinned badly enough to *really* deserve Hell? Where do you draw that line? How can we say that one person’s sins are deserving of Hell, while another person’s sins were only bad enough that they have to “work it off”?
See, one of the beliefs that I hold most dear is that we are *all* bad enough for Hell, and *nothing* we can do can make us “good enough” for Heaven, whether that’s something we do in life or something we do spiritually after death. It’s ALL about what Jesus has done, once and for all, on the cross and in the tomb.
Jesus has done it: he has completed his work of grace. Why would he have to *keep* completing it in purgatory if it’s already done?
When it comes to asking the deceased to intercede on our behalf, I think it feels strange to me partially because I have been raised Protestant, and that is not part of our tradition.
But the concept also causes me to think back to one time when I was a teenager. I was in my bedroom at night, getting ready for bed. One thing I do every night before I sleep is pray. That night, though, I was thinking that I wasn’t feeling very close to God. There are times where I feel like Jesus is there in the room with me, if you know what I mean, and it’s a wonderful feeling of peace. But at that time, I was feeling a little more distant from God–as CS Lewis once wrote, closeness to God often seems to come at waves.
So I thought to myself, “It would be a lot easier if I had something visual to represent God, because then I could always feel like God was there in the room with me.” I decided to try it, so I picked a random stuffed animal to be my “stand-in” for God. I wasn’t going to fool myself into thinking the stuffed animal *was* God; it was just something to focus my attention on.
But the moment I began to pray, it felt horribly wrong. Despite my intentions, it felt like idol worship, like I was praying to the stuffed animal, not to God. I stopped immediately.
I think that’s how I would feel about asking the dead to pray on my behalf. Intellectually I’d know I wasn’t praying *to* them, but it does raise a question: if your prayed is answered, who do you thank? God only, I hope.
Please understand that I’m not trying to attack Catholic beliefs or anything. I just find the dialogue fascinating and useful.
It’s really late here and I’ve just finished dealing with a moderately serious family emergency, so will have to answer later this weekend, if I get the chance. Or perhaps Matthew or someone else will answer you first. They are good questions, and ones that we have plenty of experience in resolving.
OK, things are a little calmer this morning, so I will get to some of your questions.
First, about sin, see 1 Jn 5:16-17 (All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin that is not deadly.) Also Mt 10:28 and Mt 12:31-32. And by reason we understand that theft is not as great a sin as murder, although both are certainly serious.
Catholics call deadly sins “mortal” and sins that are not deadly “venial.” Mortal sins are grave infractions of the law of God that destroys the divine life of the soul (what we refer to as sanctifying grace) of the sinner, constituting a turn away from God. For a sin to be mortal, three conditions must be present: it must be a grave matter, the person must have full knowledge of the evil of the act, and full consent of the will.
Venial sin does not destroy the divine life in the soul, but it certainly diminishes and wounds it. Venial sin is the failure to observe necessary moderation, in lesser matters of the moral law, or in grave matters acting without full knowledge or complete consent. This doesn’t mean that venial sin doesn’t matter. It does mean that it is not deadly.
Out of room. Got to continue in the next reply — in a little while.
About the Good Thief (and the parables): The Good Thief certainly shows that we *can* go directly to heaven. It doesn’t show that everyone will. (In fact, we don’t know what happened to the other thief after he died. He may also be in Heaven, he may be in Purgatory, he may be in Hell. Only God knows.)
The Good Thief is one of several examples in the Gospel of faith and how essential it is to salvation — total faith and belief in Jesus. Or maybe even just as much faith as the proverbial mustard seed. I have to think that most of us fall short of that standard.
The parables are a slightly different matter, but not completely. As Scott Hahn says, God wrote the universe like a writer writes a story. Nothing is in the universe or the Bible by chance, and everything has a meaning. Especially everything, every word, Jesus said. Layers and layers of meaning. We are so familiar with some of the parables and the actual events recorded in the Bible that we overlook a lot of important layers. They are more than metaphors. They are how God, who is infinite, teaches us, who are so finite, miniscule, and limited.
This is why Catholics meditate on the mysteries of Christ’s life when we say the Rosary. In a lifetime of saying the Rosary, we never run out of things to learn from those mysteries. It is good, when meditating on Christ’s death on the cross, to give some prayerful contemplation to Dismas, the Good Thief.
I don’t know what to say about that teddy bear. If you wanted to draw a parallel between it and (for example) the ikons on the wall above my desk, or the small statues of Jesus, Mary and the Saints in many Catholic homes, I think you may be on the wrong track.
Ikons, statues, and other images used by Catholics each contain symbols that help remind us of, for example, the virtues or the life of the saint — the person — represented in them. So as I type this, I can see an ikon of Saint Maximilian Kolbe, a Franciscan priest who died in the place of another man in a German concentration camp. The ikon shows his face as it appears in photographs of him, he wears the brown Franciscan habit, over his left shoulder is the concentration camp uniform, and he holds a scroll with a quotation from Jn 15:13. I have a great devotion to Saint Maximilian, and I ask his help in gaining me the grace I need to serve others. When I look at the ikon, I am reminded of all that he did in his life to serve others, beginning many years before his death, and that gives me a model for things I can do day to day. It’s not a matter of focusing on the ikon in order to pray. In fact, the usual way to describe it is that one prays WITH the ikon. But that’s probably a subject for another day.
And yes, when God gives me what I ask for, when the graces come, when by His power I can do things that really are beyond me, I do thank God. And I also take a moment to express my thanks to the saint who helped.
Tim, I hope I haven’t missed anything important that you were asking about. I’ve rattled on here for quite a while, and I have weekend chores waiting.
Speaking for myself, I appreciate your asking the questions. I hope you find the answers you need. If you are routinely curious about what the Catholic Church teaches, get yourself a copy of The Catechism of the Catholic Church (Amazon has it). Everything is in there, and it’s backed up with scripture as well as with tradition. There is a terrible amount of misinformation and outright lies spread about the Catholic Church, its teachings, and what Catholics believe, so it’s useful to have a Catechism around so you can look things up.
Have a good weekend. Say thanks for me to your Mother tomorrow.
Tim, you can also view The Catechism of the Catholic Church here: http://www.kofc.org/un/publications/cis/catechism/contents.cfm or http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/ccc_toc.htm
May you be protected and guided by the Holy Spirit as you continue to discover the truth.
Peace to you
hey fellas – great convo! Wish I had more time to read it all! But just had some quick comments.
Tim – in regard to what you said here:
I think this actually goes against your argument. As we know, Jesus says this to the theif. As we also know is that Jesus himself did not go to “paradise” on “this day” – at least not in the sense that you are suggesting. We know that Jesus descended to the dead himself…and then rose again in 3 days! So Jesus apparently was #1) able to exist in some type of OTHER place aside from Heaven, Hell, or Earth and #2) he does so for 3 days while also saying that he would be in paradise on “this day” to the good thief.
So if it’s possible for Jesus to be in some other place for 3 days other than heaven, hell, or earth before coming back to earth – then certainly the good thief could have been in an OTHER place as well like Purgatory.
Heaven, Hell, purgatory, etc. are not bound by the time and space of our universe. God is outside of time. For God, today the thief is in heaven with Jesus. Today that thief also awaits the “Resurrection” which has not happened yet. Today God is crucified. Today God is risen. Today is all of time for God as he is outside of it. We can’t limit our ideas of heaven, hell, purgatory with the space and time of our universe.
So there is no need of “time” to go through purgatory. It’s a state or a process. We simply MUST be cleansed before entering heaven. Whatever process God puts us through to do that – call that purgatory.
We can go down path after path like this debating certain interpretations of scripture. But there is a big difference between what we as Catholics view our basis for doing so and you as a protestant. We don’t limit ourselves to sola scriptura. No Christians did this until over 1500 years after Christ, and the Bible certainly doesn’t ask us to do this either.
As Catholics we also hold fast to the Traditions of the Apostles themselves and what they’ve passed down in the Church. We don’t have to depend solely on our own interpretation or opinion of scripture alone when it comes to these important matters of faith and morals. We simply look to the Church that Jesus gave us for guidance – that’s why he gave it to us. We look to what the first Christians did (and you would see, for example that they prayed to the dead and always have). We look to the human (and divine) institution that actually gave us the canon of the Bible to also help us understand what it means.
I am not telling you what my opinion is on whether or not purgatory exists – I have absolutely no authority to do so. I am just doing the best I can to relay the message of the Church – who does have that authority.
I understand that probably all sounds crazy to you.
But it’s an important issue – the matter of authority. We can give you scriptural evidence of Catholic beliefs all day (as it can all be backed up with scripture and contradicts none of it). But for the sake of our discussion, I would love to hear what you think of this other post I wrote here.
1 Timothy 2:5 declares, “For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” There is no one else that can mediate with God for us. If Jesus is the ONLY mediator, that indicates Mary and saints cannot be mediators. They cannot mediate our prayer requests to God. Further, the Bible tells us that Jesus Christ Himself is interceding for us before the Father, “Therefore He is able to save completely those who come to God through Him, because He always lives to intercede for them” (Hebrews 7:25). With Jesus Himself interceding for us, why would we need Mary or the saints to intercede for us? Who would God listen to more closely than His Son? Romans 8:26-27 describes the Holy Spirit interceding for us. With the 2nd and 3rd members of the Trinity already interceding for us before the Father in Heaven, what possible need could there be to have Mary or the saints interceding for us?…The Bible gives absolutely no indication that Mary or the saints can hear our prayers. Mary and the saints are not omniscient. Even glorified in Heaven, they are still finite beings with limitations. How could they possibly hear the prayers of millions of people? Whenever the Bible mentions praying to or speaking with the dead, it is in the context of sorcery, witchcraft, necromancy, and divination – activities the Bible strongly condemns (Leviticus 20:27; Deuteronomy 18:10-13)FULL VERSION ON: http://www.gotquestions.org/prayer-saints-Mary.html
Many people mistakenly believe that the immaculate conception refers to the conception of Jesus Christ. Jesus’ conception was most assuredly immaculate…but this concept does not refer to Jesus at all. The immaculate conception is a doctrine of the Romans Catholic Church in regards to Mary, Jesus’ mother. An official statement of the doctrine reads, “…the blessed Virgin Mary to have been, from the first instant of her conception, by a singular grace and privilege of Almighty God, in view of the merits of Christ Jesus the Savior of Mankind, preserved free from all stain of original sin.” Essentially the immaculate conception is the belief that Mary was protected from original sin, that Mary did not have a sin nature, and was, in fact, sinless.
The problem with the doctrine of the immaculate conception is that it is not taught in the Bible.
READ FULL VERSION:
http://www.gotquestions.org/immaculate-conception.html
MikeyAnn, you obviously have not read any of the dialogue in this thread, or the scripture citations that do not conform to your view, so I’m pretty sure you would completely ignore anything else I have to say. It’s hard to have a discussion with someone who won’t listen.
(shakes dust off of sandals)
Bill – I was about to say the exact same thing!
Great job and thank you for all the comments earlier for Tim. As we all know, it can take a lot of time to actually be thoughtful and engage in a discussion on here. I thank you and Tim and everyone else who commented for the great discussion! I hope we all learned a few things – I know I did. God bless.
I’m sorry I didnt read the comments I was just commenting on your post. My intent is NOT to argue or bring division but I do have a different view on the issue. I grew up Catholic and actually went to church, attended Catholic school, and made all the sacraments I was supposed to. I left the church two years ago but I know we are still brothers and sisters in Christ Jesus. The bible says, Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth (2 Timothy 2:15). If we are to rightly divide the word of truth we have to look at ALL scripture, everything the Lords says about the subject so that we are not only pulling out what WE think. My appologies if the Link I posted was offensive, I was just trying to apply more scriptual info on the subject.
MikeyAnn, your “different view” is well understood and was (at least in part) presented by Tim. The problem, and you should know this, is that the Protestant view, beginning with Martin Luther, picks and chooses only those bits of scripture that support it — and even then the various Protestant denominations do not agree among themselves on these matters or on the interpretation of scripture. The teachings of the Catholic Church are firmly grounded in the whole of scripture, without picking and choosing, and in tradition that has been handed down from the time of the Apostles. St. Paul certainly says in many places that tradition is important and is to be kept.
If you ask people to pray for you, or if you pray for others, you are making use of intercessory prayer. This is in fact exactly what John advises us to do in 1 Jn 5:16. It’s the same thing when we ask the saints to pray for us.
You also know (or should) that sola scriptura itself is not biblical. Veneration of the saints and of Mary, and asking them to carry our petitions to God, through Jesus, is very old, with documented evidence of these practices going back to the very first years of the Church. Surely in your Catholic education they must have taught you these things. I didn’t bring them up with Tim because there would be too much ground to cover, and it really needs to be the subject of a new thread. But you have the foundation already, so I’m just reminding you.
Oh I agree with you wholeheartedly that we should ask others to pray for us/eachother! As for Mary I believe that she can not hear our prayers because only God has omnipresence = Present everywhere simultaneously, is Omniscient Having total knowledge; knowing everything, and Omnipotent = almighty or infinite in power, as God having very great or unlimited authority or power. So I believe He is the only one to hear and carryout our petitions along with intesessors here. I dont believe Mary could be present in every church home and country where she is being prayed to all at the same time.
This is my belief and I respect yours. We are all His children and the only important thing is that the only way to the Father is through the Son, and we believe in Him as our savior! So Mary is not essential to our salvation but in your Catholic faith I know she is revered.
MikeyAnn, read 1 Cor 12:12-26 carefully. Christ has one Body, not one Body on Earth and one Body in Heaven. The saints in Heaven are part of that Body, and so are we. If those in Heaven had no way of knowing about our suffering and our needs, how could they be concerned about us?
It’s the same question people have about the angels — how can they know what we are thinking? But see Rev 8: 3-4. The answer is that the angels can do nothing for us apart from God’s will, and God makes it clear through scripture that he wills the angels to be involved in the mystery of our worship of him. (Paraphrasing Patrick Madrid here — gotta give credit.) It’s the same with the saints in general and with Mary in particular — their will is united to God’s will.
That we don’t know *how* this happens is beside the point — that’s one of those mysteries. What’s important is that it does happen.
Tim, I would like to also share http://bit.ly/L5nJe with you. “Do Catholics Worship Mary?” is from http://www.triumphoftruth.com
HEllo,
I would just like to add to the commentary. Not only aren’t the saints omniscient or omnipresent as the poster stated, these saints have not beed judged yet Christ as worthy of heaven or hell so what authority would they have to intercede for us.
I also believe in the biblical passage which says “it is finished at the grave” and the scriptures warnings of communicating with the dead. My belief is that while one is talking to the dead, you don’t know what spirit is being released since holiness and sanctification is only determined by God and NOT the Catholic church! I say confusion can only abound.
God Bless,
Quite honestly Joy, I believe that our “heaven” or our “hell” begins with our existence and it is we, ourselves who choose it. It is not an omnipotent “God” who stands as a judge and says, “you go here and you go there.” If by our actions, will and thoughts choose to exclude our Maker from being a part of us, that is where hell begins. If we on the other hand choose to remain in the love of our Maker, that is where heaven lies, either as a human being, as a soul or as both; on this earth or whatever realm it is we inhabit when the mortal form ceases to be. Those people who choose and have chosen to remain in the love of their maker are inhabiting heaven now and will continue in the hereafter, hence we know they are saints because they remain in the love of our Maker. This is no dogma given to me by the Catholic Church- it is something personal which makes sense to me. It may of course not make sense to you and in that case, you still have to continue searching.
Go Eva Ulian! You made a great point,and represented for all Catholics!