Thanks for your comments. I would encourage you to actually read the post. I quoted that very scripture passage and discussed it.

I also even wrote a follow up post to clarify even more (also linked to in a comment above). Here it is.

Anyway, I would hope you would at least read what I have to say before making such accusations. God bless you.

What about Ephesians 2:8-9?
8-For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of GOD:
9-Not of works, lest any man should boast.
[King James Version]

Are you calling the Bible, which is accepted as the infallible Word of GOD, a liar?
Remember that all men will be held accountable for every last word according to Matthew 12:36
Be careful not to find yourself to blame in the sight of GOD for falsely teaching others that their faith in him is “not enough for salvation”.
There are many places where we are admonished that our actions will reveal if we are walking in our salvation, but not that salvation is dependent on our actions.

1John.4
[11] Beloved, if God so loved us, we also ought to love one another.
[12] No man has ever seen God; if we love one another, God abides in us and his love is perfected in us.

Eph.5

1. [25] Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her,
2. [28] Even so husbands should love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself.

1Tim.2

1. [15] Yet woman will be saved through bearing children, IF she continues in faith and love and holiness, with modesty.

It’s not auotmatic. It’s conditional. These are just a few verses of many that don’t support automatic love.

1 Tim 2:4
1Tim.
1. [4] who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

If this God is the same as the god of double predestination then he is a monster. For he says there is a man drowning in the water over there and I could save him but I am not even going to try because I don’t rell like it. But i hope he gets saved even though he can’t possibly save himself, nor can anyone but me save him. That god is a liar because the passage above would be a lie.

But of course the one true God is not that God at all. He is a God of love and in loving us he allows us the freedom to love him. He stands at the door and knocks with each one of us. But does not force us to.

I of course agree with soveriegnty if it does not take away free will or make God the monster of calvinism who “desires that all men be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth” but does nothing about it. All men in fact receive grace or the statement from 1 Timothy 2:4 . The problem with the “it is finished interpretation” is that it implies that God is just kinda sitting back. But God is working today in our lives to bring about salvation. And it is not just at that moment when we say a sinners prayer. God lead the Isrealites through the desert and he leads us through the desert of life. There is a path we are on and he leads us when we listen and hear his voice. That grace one for us on the cross was suffient to save ALL of mankind but it does not because it must be applied to our lives today. Not 2000 years ago. The salve must be put on the wounds today and we must respond to his grace today. He does not force it either and so we must open ourselves up to it. His grace is for all. “The sun shines on the good and the bad”. All receive it but many do not acknowledge it.

Enough soap box for now. Good discussion.

Chris,

This is the problem with protestants. They don’t understand the atonement. It’s all God or all us and if it is any of us then it is not of God. Everything is dichotomy, but dichotomy is not the mind of God. Tell, me do you believe that God provides? Well now if I am hungry and go out in the woods and kill a deer and it feeds my family for a month. Who provided? God or the deer? You see the problem with your either us or him approach. God works THROUGH his creation.

Now with regard to faith or works. It’s another false dichtomy. Did not Jesus say: John.15

1. [5] I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in me, and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing.

Does that mean in me you can do nothing as well? No, he bears fruit. But Paul says ”

Gal.2

1. [20] I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me; and the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.

The Math of the scriptures is not 100% God and 0% us. Or 50% God and 50% us. It is all God working in and through us. To him be the glory!

Eph 3
[20]
Now to him who by the power at work within us is able to do far more abundantly than all that we ask or think,
[21] to him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus to all generations, for ever and ever. Amen.
I
You want to rob this work of it’s fruit that comes on judgement day when he says “WELL DONE good and faithful servant”, knowing full well that he gave us the strength to do what was required on that day of judgement.

So your problem with a salvation that requires a mans action is that it calls the sovereignty of God into question.

My problem with that logic is that it calls the character of God into question. If mans salvation and faith are forced on him as Artie points out, then what does that say about the rest who end up in hell?

You must logically conclude that God ordained some for heaven thus creating some specifically for hell. If man has no work or choice in his salvation then it is double predestination or nothing.

While that can be a logical argument that can be supported IF you lay that logical framework over top of scripture. It is inconsistent with the character of God found in the bible. Scripture tells us God’s Son came to take away the sin of the world that seems pretty plain to me.

That is not a proper understanding of Catholic theology in regards to faith and works.

It is important to realize that the Catholic Church does not teach that we earn our salvation by our own efforts, although it does teach that we have to work on our salvation. “Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling” (Phil. 2:12).

We are justified by faith because faith is the beginning of human salvation, the foundation and root of all justification. The Catholic Church does not teach that we receive initial justification by good works. You do not have to do good works in order to come to God and be justified.

To sum it up a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law . . . not by faith alone . . . for faith apart from works is dead . . . but faith working through love.

Let me ask you this question, does the bible teach that we must do something like go to church, feed the poor, love thy neighbor, etc.?

Sacred Scripture makes it clear that there must be a balanced relationship between our faith and its expression in good works.

I always ask somebody with “faith alone” theology to demonstrate their faith to me without works, and I will demonstrate my faith to you from my works. So I will ask you to do the same.

Loving thy neighbor hardly makes Christ insufficient. I will say that no loving thy neighbor and saying I believe in Christ would make me a hypocrite.

Faith is a gift from God, but to suggest that you are not cooperating with it by accepting that gift is to suggest that we are forced to believe. Accepting that free gift is indeed a work.

Regarding love and obedience, as Matt referred to over on “are you saved?”, Catholics and Protestants both expect them. Absolutely. The difference is this – one expects to see them as a natural byproduct of salvation, whereas the other mandates them as a work required for salvation. Again, this leaves the atonement insufficient. No?

The issue is with terminology.

The first question that needs to be asked Chris, is what is your definition of faith? Does it encompass or eventually lead to “good works” (I.E. acts of love, charity, obeying the commandments, etc.)?

The next question is what is your definition of works?

In regards to my comment, “I have not met one protestant who adheres to Sola Fide when it comes down to it.”

When the discussion is ironed out between a fellow protestant and a Catholic, we come to the same conclusion, yet use different terminology to get us there. Hope that makes sense.